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Ramaphosa's 2nd day at Marikana hearings - as it happened

By: Lauren Hess, News24 2014-08-12 15:40


16:29 -

And that's where we close updates. Ramaphosa's time at the hearings is up but he might be called back to testify again.

Cheers


16:14 -

The injured rock drill operator used the gallery mic to tell CR he's lying: You wanted to be as rich as your brother in law (Patrice Motsepe), he said.


16:11 - Reporters in Pretoria where the hearings are taking place say there is a huge police contingency outside the building.


16:11


16:09 -

And with that Farlam excuses CR. And as CR says thanks, he's interrupted by a mineworker who was injured during the violence of August 2012.He was one of the operators who was interviewed in Miners Shot Down.

The man now uses a cane to help him walk.


16:07 -

When I spoke of "dastardly criminal acts" I was speaking about murders and attacks on people in Marikana. When people were burnt in their vehicles and had body parts cut out. - CR

I wasn't referring to the illegal strike, he says.


16:06 - CR: I would not have characterised an unprotected strike as an act of criminality if there was just a strike, no violence.


16:03 - CR: I didn't foresee the events of 16 August 2012, as much as I'd received reports police had been killed.


16:02 - CR: Shabangu said she would also communicate with the President (Zuma) regarding our concerns.


16:01 - The detail (about how the police should do their work) was never really covered. No coercion - CR


15:59 - I never sought to prescribe what sort of action the two ministers should take beyond that those responsible should be arrested - CR


15:59 - The picture that was being drawn for me that it was a serious situation of mayhem, CR says. My main objective was that we prevent further loss of life. I didn't foresee that further deaths would ensure when police entered the situation.


15:57 -

CR explains: When I saw reports of people dying in this brutal way, says CR, I took it upon myself to call Mthethwa and said people are getting killed and it behoves on police to intervene in a way that prevents further loss of life.

He continues: I said what would be helpful would be to arrest those responsible for killings and attacks. I implored on Shabangu to prevent further loss of life and further injuries.


15:54 -

CR sits calmly as hecklers walk out.

I don't agree with proposition that Mpofu has put forward - CR

Mpofu tries to speak but Farlam tells him his time is up. He says he has one proposition.

Mpofu: The man sitting next to me lost his big toe in the 16 August incident. He believes that because of your current position that you and those others should be charged criminally in the international criminal court.

CR says calmly: I don't agree with that proposition.


15:51 -

Mpofu: We're going to ask that CR be charged with murder along with others including those who pulled the trigger. That whole chain is responsible for those deaths.

CR: Clearly you've taken lots of time building this proposition. I deeply regret the deaths of all those who died.

Hecklers stop CR again with "he killed them! He's a sell-out this man!". Heckler grabs his goods and walks out of the auditorium while shouting "murderer! People are hungry, you can't even give them food!" 

Farlam orders Mpofu to wait for hecklers to leave.


15:47 - Mpofu says because all of the actions CR took, he should have foreseen the killing of the miners.


15:46 -

Mpofu: Placing political pressure on police minister to lean on police operational people would be illegal?

CR: Yes.


15:44 - Mpofu: NUM also issued a statement that day (CR called for police and army) also calling for police special task force in Marikana.


15:39 - Underhalter says one can't argue that one should have foreseen it. One can't argue conclusions if facts aren't put to the witness, he says.


15:38 -

Mpofu says it's a well-known fact that once police killings happen that the police react in full force to avenge their murdered colleagues.

CR: I know when cops are killed, police get extremely concerned abuot it.

Mpofu: Knowing that, one doesn't need to be a genius to predict that police would have reeacted and ended up killing 34 people?

CR: I didn't foresee all this.

Mpofu: You should have. We'll argue that.


15:35 - Underhalter says, with a hint of sarcasm in his tone, that he wants to hear the factual basis for calling CR a liar.


15:33 - Unterhalter interjects says he doesn't know how any f this is linked to CR.


15:33 - Mpofu: Political considerations were not just being taken into account but would override security considerations.


15:30


15:30 - CR: I don't accept the connection between Malema comment & pressure from me. We differ on that.


15:28 - Mpofu reads communication between Lonmin's Mokoena and Mbombo in which Mbombo said Malema can't get credit for defusing Marikana situation.


15:27 - How is Mpofu making these conections in the text, asks Underhalter. Mpofu explains.


15:25 - Mpofu going through the minutes again where police say it has serious implications if Malema addresses miners.


15:24 - CR agrees that there was a political consideration in the situation.


15:23 - Marikana Commission resumes, Mpofu continues questioning CR on "political considerations" in Marikana situation.


15:05 -

Mpofu: Because of your pressure more deaths could've resulted, surely that's dispensable. CR: I agree.

And with that, a 15 minute adjournment.


15:03 -

Mpofu: Can you see that Mr Mokoena identifies the source of the alleged pressure?

CR: He mentioned my name...


15:01 - CR: I did not pressurise the minister.


15:00 - Mpofu accuses CR of being evasive, Farlam disagrees.


14:59 - Mpofu says Nathi Mthethwa perceived the calls he was receiving from CR were "political pressure" according to Riah Phiyega.


14:55 -

Mpofu:Police killed 34 people at your instigation.

CR: I wouldn't agree that it was at my instigation. Vehemently deny that


14:52 - Farlam says CR was already told police would be increased. Why more did you want?


14:49 - Mpofu says CR wanted the police to kill the workers.


14:48 -

Mpofu: Unless you (CR) meant it literally that they (police) must point guns at people.

CR: No, I explained this.


14:47 - Just saw a tweet saying the temperature is rising again at the hearing. I think it would be more accurate to say that the temperature continues to remain quite high. It's been heated for quite some time now!


14:43 - I went to Shabangu, told her police should act in a pointed way. That means the police should stabilise situation and arrest criminal suspects - CR


14:41 -

You can't fly to Cape Town to get the police to arrest criminals in Marikana - Mpofu. Farlam stops him and says CR already explained why he went to Cape Town.


14:39 - He (Jamieson) was not in a position like me to insist, CR says.


14:38 - Do you accept what I've just put to you, asks Mpofu. CR is unsure what's being put to you. Underhalter interjects again to say Mpofu continuously makes long statements with unclear questions.


14:36 -

I ask questions you answer them, you don't make snide remarks, otherwise you will get 10 times what you give, says Mpofu.

Farlam tells him not to make threats.

Mpofu: It's not a threat, it's a promise.


14:35 -

Mpofu: Is that seriously  your evidence that any citizen can fly to Cape Town, meet minister and she undertakes to take it to the president?

As CR explains, an angry Mpofu interjects "don't start with me, Mr Ramaphosa".


14:34 -

Mpofu says a Lonmin exec couldn't have spoken to the minister because CR had political influence.

CR: I just had access to her (Shabangu).


14:33 - Mpofu: Why would Lonmin come to you to change the minister's mind? Ramaphosa: Maybe you should ask Phillimore from Lonmin.


14:31 - CR says a "normal person" would be able to persuade the minister.


14:29 -

Mpofu says it's an over-achievement on the part of Ramaphosa to sway Shabangu on the Marikana issue in a matter of hours.

CR says he wouldn't call it that.


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